Bloodless Coup

I saw that story and wanted to cry. I am relieved that the Canadian miners got out safely,and so sad that their safety seemed so easily assured while here in the 'greatest nation on earth,' the people who literally fuel our economy are left to write goodbye notes in the dark for their families to find next to their corpses.

i don't disagree at all, but do any of us know for a fact that there were no such rooms in the recent accidents in US mines? isn't it equally possible that the mines in question had safe rooms to which circumstances denied the trapped miners access? and isn't it equally possible that canadian mines' safe rooms are not so pervasive that a miner is guaranteed access in a given accident, but that in this case these guys were in the right place? also, didn't plano involve some sort of collapse and debris in addition to fire?

Moon, the miners in WV had access to tanks with one hour of oxygen, while the supplies for the Canadians were designed to last 36 hours. By design the US provision of supplies was severely deficient.

if all they had was the one-hour tanks, i couldn't agree more. but that doesn't preclude the possibility that there were greater supplies elsewhere that the peculiar circumstances of the plano accident prevented the miners from reaching. i'm not saying this is so, either, or that if it were so that would end the discussion. but i find it very difficult to believe that osha allows people to be that far underground with one-hour tanks of oxygen only. and though i've heard tell of violations and fines at plano, i've heard nothing about their violations being so obviously lethal as to be cited for providing only one hour of oxygen.

i really don't know, but all of the questions i posted, not just the one, seem worth of asking -- precisely because i don't know.

in any case, OSHA is underresourced, understaffed, underappreciated, and in general is unable to do its job well. even more critically, the range they're given when it comes time to sanction misconduct is relatively limited; it's very hard for them to make anything sting enough to deter a large company trying to cut corners at the expense of worker safety from doing so. at least among developed countries ("nanny states," most of them, which evidently got sick of the invisible hand letting the meanest among them die horrible deaths unnecessarily), there can be little dispute that our manufacturing, mining, and logging industries, among others, are far more dangerous than they need to be due to a combination of unconscionable safety concessions thrown as sops to corporations and widespread noncompliance.

And, as I said, I do know. Their emergency tanks had a one hour reserve.

so there "were[n't] greater supplies elsewhere that the peculiar circumstances of the plano accident prevented the miners from reaching[?]"

"osha allows people to be that far underground with one-hour tanks of oxygen only[?]"

"there were no such rooms in the recent accidents in US mines?"

"also, didn't plano involve some sort of collapse and debris in addition to fire?"

i don't mean to be a dick, but i've never questioned the veracity of your comments regarding that what the plano miners were able to get to were paltry one-hour supplies of oxygen. rather, i've been asking other, related questions to further contextualize the comparison.

Well, in the original post I did say that I don't know if the "room" is viable in coal as in potash.

What is Plano?

Acording to the news reports, the only other oxygen the Sago miners might have had access to was a welding tank (or something like that) that could have been adapted and had an uncertain amount of oxygen in it but wasnt designed for breathing, but they didn't reach it.

The required procedure for them was to create a shelter and stay behind it, with their breathing filters (and the time on those that I've seen varies).

The emergency supplies were in 55 gallon drums, not safe rooms, and they didn't get to the emergency drums.

As for OSHA, you can work a search engine as well as I can about whether or not this conformed to OSHA. There is an investigation.

FMSA and MSHA, for your reading pleasure.

first, apologies for the plano thing. i just misremembered the name of the mine.

second, a post-sago rule proposal and solicitation for public comment found via the MSHA site pretty much answers my questions, and in a way that reinforces the original tone of your post and erases my hesitancy about joining in in ignorance.

based on preambles to sections C and D of the proposed rule, it appears that one hour of oxygen is all that required, that mines are not at present required to furnish caches of breathing apparati, and at present "rescue chambers"* with provisions to enable longer survival underground, as that which appears to have saved the canadian miners, are not required in american coal mines. also, those rooms appear to present no extraordinary risk, since that possibility is not even suggested in the language of the discussion in the proposed rule.

thanks for the links.

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* "A rescue chamber is an emergency shelter to which persons may go in case of a mine emergency for protection against hazards. A rescue chamber could provide, among other things, an adequate supply of air, first aid, and an independent communication system."

I was all like, they have mines in suburban Texas?

Laura Rozen has a brief post related to mine safety up at War and Piece. Two things about it: 1) the fines are far too small to have any impact, and 2) the administration doesn't seem too responsive to calls for reform.

you don't say. maybe the canadian outcome, still making headlines, will pique the national imagination, at least in the rust belt, and force some change. then the deaths won't be wholly in vain. but then i'm not holding my breath.