Via Laura Rozen I found this report by Karl Vick in The Washington Post. This is simply astounding. Turkey is a NATO ally. Traditionally we've had pretty good ties (though the 1990-1991 Gulf War and its aftermath put a strain on them). But under George W. Bush twice as many Turks hate us as hate Greece. I can barely process it. The Turks and the Greeks have been rivals for millenia, and of course early in the 20th century they fought a very nasty war that led to the kinds of ugly ethnic massacres and forced relocations of large populations that we in the US now associate with the former Yugoslavia or the Arab-Israeli dispute. And yet - they see the US as the enemy. I'd usually take a shot at how Bush foreign policy is damaging US interests and security - but on this one I think the numbers can speak for themselves.
Posted by armand at April 11, 2005 10:43 AM | Posted to International Affairsnot to mention their surreal korean peninsula-esque division of cyprus. we're worse than that?
Posted by: joshua at April 11, 2005 01:59 PM | PERMALINK"The Turks and the Greeks have been rivals for millenia"
really? millenia is plural. a single millenium ago they barely knew who each other were.
"..in the 20th century they fought a very nasty war that led to the kinds of ugly ethnic massacres and forced relocations of large populations..."
They fought a continuation of Wold War One because the allies were attempting to use them as proxy to carve post colonial footholds in the middle east, contain the bolsheviks and used these two countries as prioxies. the allies then forced a population exchange to those ends.
Within ten years of that war Greece and Turkey were very close, with Prime Minsiter Venizelos nominating Atatturk for a Nobel Prize.
They had no serious problems until much later when the US supported military dictatorships in both countries and fed them with massive amouts of arms. I am not saying that is worse than being taken by Stalin, but there is no question it created an inorganic militarist nature in both countries.
The two hugely armed countries run by authoritatian militaries did tangel ove Cyprus when that coutnry was made independednt by the U.K. The cold war with Henry Kissinger calling Cypriot leader Archbishop Makarios "the Castro of the Mediterranean didn;t help. Nasty yes. Deep seated ancient hatred? no.
Greece left its dictratorship behind in the seventies. Turkey took another 20 years to shake it off meaning their systems were incompatable for a long time.
Today? Greece is one of the most vocal supporters of Turkey joining the EU. Why? because they love them? no. But they recognize a) that the tension in the relationship draws from a lack of conciquences for Turkey'S threats and that will disappear; b) the region will become a dynamo of integrated economies; c) musch of the western prejudice against Turks is also held against Greeks and draws back to the crusades.
Yeah, I'm Greek. Like a huge number of Greeks I go to Turkey quite often, have many friends there.
Beyond Greek Turkish relations your main point has to do with views toward the US.
I agree the ball has been dropped. But although if I voted in the States I would not vote for Bush, I can't say he is the root of curent feelings in Turkey. Turkey's increasing anti-Americanism (whcih is much sharper and vitrolic than one saw in Greece after the fall of the US sponsered dmilitary) and Turkey's even more flaberghsting anti-Semitism and now leading criticism of Israel (the Prime minster of Turkey recently called Israel a "terrorist state") comes from a reaction to much more than anything George Bush has done.
I think we need to get beyond personalizing these relationships. The US supported a dictatorship there. Being a proxy, well it sucks. Bush is a nice scapegoat, and he is unlikable, but this is really a reasction which would come no matter what.
Lstly I really find Rozen to be reductive and not sophisticated when it comes to the Balkans and SE Europe. She is kinda of a Bob Kaplan of the left with a travalogue mentality and nothing to offer other than simple minded throwaways like "ancient rivals". that is not even historically accurate if one looks at at websters definition of ancient.
Worse she makes a lot more factual errors than Kaplan and her prognostications also have a bad track record.
Posted by: alex at April 12, 2005 11:46 PM | PERMALINKAlex - Thanks for the lengthy critique. Yeah, you are right and I shouldn't have written "millenia". Though I think you're being a little light on the post-World War I stuff. Whether or not the allies were behind it (and yeah, they were behind most of it) it was still pretty nasty. And in fact you use the word "nasty" itself to describe relations between the two - and to me that's the key point on relations between the two. Even if there isn't blinding hatred (though I've certainly known some people from Cyprus who's views could be described that way), there's a long-standing rivalry. And that's also seen in the way the US deals with the two.
But the article is focused more closely on Turkey and the US. And that the US, which has gotten along with Turkey better than most of the powers since it became an independent state is viewed so much more negatively that a regional rival ... I think that's a noteworthy change. And give the extreme level to which that feeling is felt - that is going to have big consequences in terms of how the US and Turkey work together, especially now that Turkey appears to be on the path of permanently being a democracy.
Posted by: Armand at April 13, 2005 11:53 AM | PERMALINKAlthough I come from Greece, I can assure you that Turks don't hate you! They are quite big ass-kissers! Also, you have the money and the appropriate equipment to drill oil from the Aegean sea. I would say, they will suck you to death in order to force us sign that this sea belongs to Turkey.
Also, I beleive that you really don't want a Greek's opinion on the Cyprus' matter! Especially if you are American...
Posted by: Dimitris Damilos at January 6, 2006 07:58 AM | PERMALINKYOU "Dimitris Damilos" be carefull with your words as the issue of "kissing ass" is your proffession when we look back in the history, like your "kissing ass" when Greek soldiers ran away from Izmir after the Turkish Independence War. I can give more examples but it's a waste of time.. as I said.. "kissing ass" is your proffession. When it comes to the hate of Turks against USA, that's true it's increasing. But the reason is that the USA think the Turkish people stupid. They promise to be a strategic partner but they act in opposite. Although our political leaders do nothing except for talking positively everytime as they don't want to contuse the relationship with USA; people can easily see the truth: USA don't want us to be good and strong, like the rest of the world
Posted by: Attila, the scourge of god at March 24, 2007 06:35 PM | PERMALINKTo Attila.
You say Turkish independence war what is that? The land you inhabit isn't even yours. Turkish people are very stupid which is why nobody wants Turks in their country. Turkey is America's puppet in the middle east. Greece is worthless to America and England because she does not bend over to their demands which is a good thing. The reason why Greece is voting for Turkey in the E.U is because they know if they dont push for them they will be labled by America and England as a country which can't forget the past. The Turks commited genocide on over 400,000 Greeks in Turkey and over 1,000,000 Armenians.
Posted by: Greek at March 31, 2007 04:59 PM | PERMALINKMore evidence for the difficulty of resolving long-standing ethnic conflict.
Posted by: binky at March 31, 2007 08:23 PM | PERMALINK