Bloodless Coup

This made me think of the following excerpt from "Naked" by David Sedaris:

(He's talking about hitchhiking across the country with his friend Peg who was bound to wheelchair because of a degenerative nerve disease.)

"CB radios were activated and station wagons appeared. Waitresses in roadside restaurants would approach our table whispering 'Your bill has been taken care of,' and pointing to some teary-eyed couple standing beside the cash register. We found it amusing and pictured these Samaritans notifying their pastor to boast, 'We saw this crippled girl and her husband and, well, we didn't have much but we did what we could.'"

What does it mean to stand up and thank the United States, for a person from Iraq? Maybe it means loyalty, gratitude, humility, and courage. Would it be so bad to have someone like that as Prime Minister of Iraq?

It's a matter of prioritization - someone who can competently run the country, hopefully back values and policies we'd support, someone who can curtail the violence and see to it that lots of Americans don't die there every month - to me, it's more important that the next Iraqi leader have those traits than be willing to get on his knees and laud the president.

I get your reaction Mikey - the cluelessness involved, the aren't we SO special and kind to help those poor souls, the "why that $10 I gave to the poor person in the wheelchair is sure to get me into heaven" response.

But I've got to say my reaction was rather more negative - I saw someone thinking, "I've spent lives and hundreds of billions securing my (uh, your) interests, and bombing the hell out of you and killing your people to secure my (uh, your) interests - now get on your knees and thank me!"

The I guess the first part of that thought is more often associated with an Oriental emperor than a president of the United States - and I guess the second part is more likely to be associated with Bill Clinton than George Bush. And yet it's Bush I see doing all of it - and in a much more threatening, disturbing and needy way than anything involving Monica L.

I have yet to see evidence that there is overwhelming gratitude toward what we have done in Iraq.

As for loyalty, I'm not sure the Middle East wants an administration "loyal" to the United States.

And yes, it would be so bad to have someone like that. Hopefully examples aren't needed of the failures of Middle Eastern regimes loyal to the West.

And from a moral standpoint, I thought the most noble and humble thing to do would be saying "no thanks necessary" and considering the fruits of your labor enough of a reward, rather than demanding gratitude.

Such demands imply superiority on our part. Bush is looking down upon the people of Iraq expecting them to fall to his feet with awe of the great things he has accomplished. Therefore, they are our inferior subjects.

This demand should also indicate that US action in Iraq may not deserve thanks and the fact that Bush needs to ask for gratitude may show some insecurity regarding the results of his war on terror.

am i the only one who hears in bush's plaint echoes of terrance stamp in superman II?

kneel before zod!

Mikey,
You say, "As for loyalty, I'm not sure the Middle East wants an administration 'loyal' to the United States."
Why don't we let them decide that, unless you think they're so inferior they can't figure that one out for themselves. That's victimhood, learned helplessness, and exactly the kind of attitude that will keep the Middle East a breeding ground for slavery and terrorism. Unless you somehow think "We're fucked!" is a good starting point for a foreign policy. Though it would be a good excuse to go and smoke weed rather than, say, do something that shows we care about what happens there.

As to your next ("And yes, it would be so bad to have someone like that. Hopefully examples aren't needed of the failures of Middle Eastern regimes loyal to the West"), we already have that example, but maybe you missed your Iranian history course. Again, this is learned helplessness, insecurity at failing that would prevent us from acting to better our situation because you don't believe it will matter. I believe it will, if only to those in our nation who have grown bored with its nausea. 9/11 woke us up, reminded us of our own mortality that blew away the veil of nihilism, and in response we didn't pull out like we did Mogadishu. We remain resolved because we know again there is something worth dying for.

You say: "And from a moral standpoint, I thought the most noble and humble thing to do would be saying 'no thanks necessary' and considering the fruits of your labor enough of a reward, rather than demanding gratitude."
As a Taoist, I see the wisdom in: "Be kind to those who are kind, and be kind to those who are unkind, because kindness is accomplished." However, remember what the President actually said, rather than the way Armand interpreted it:
"It's important to have someone who's willing to stand up and thank the American people for their sacrifice in liberating Iraq."
It's important to have someone who's willing to stand up. That's the part my esteemed brother did not focus on, the part that says Bush wanted someone who was brave, loyal, humble, and grateful. What my brother and Bremer fail to comprehend is that the best administrator in the world is absolutely useless and potentially extremely harmful, the better an administrator he is. The smarter he is, the more dangerous he is, unless he's going in the same direction we are. And if he is so afraid or corrupt that saying thankyou to comfort all those families of soldiers Bush has personally called, he's not going our way. He's going the other way: disloyal, ungrateful, venal, and cowardly, at least with respect to the great sacrifice of our nation.
"Such demands imply superiority on our part. Bush is looking down upon the people of Iraq expecting them to fall to his feet with awe of the great things he has accomplished. Therefore, they are our inferior subjects."
There is such a great misunderstanding of humility today. Humility is not shame, believing oneself to be worthless. Humlity is believing oneself to be no better than one actually is. We actually have sacrificed thousands of soldiers lives, had thousands more injured, just so that the Iraqi people may be free. This actually does deserve thanks.
Finally, you say:
"This demand should also indicate that US action in Iraq may not deserve thanks and the fact that Bush needs to ask for gratitude may show some insecurity regarding the results of his war on terror."
It's called projection.
Bro,
You talk about "someone to curtail the violence" as though such a person was available, and Bush chose someone else. During Bremer's time, most of the violence was still directed towards Americans. What would do more to curtail the violence than a nation's prime minister publicly thanking the nation whose soldiers were being attacked? Also, this continues placing responsibility for violence not on those who actually commit the violence, but on others who don't.

"Why don't we let them decide that."

Yes, let's them, and let's get our leader off his soapbox on the matter of Iraqi's democratic choice. Having established democracy, allegedly, how about we take our thumb off the scale and let it run its course.

If I was an Iraqi, while I might be grateful for the Americans' removal of Hussein, I might reserve my thanks until such time as it was clear to me that the occupying nation wouldn't a) leave me at the mercy of another petty dictator, as we did after the first Gulf War or b) leave me in the crossfire of a sectarian civil war.

The insurgency, while perhaps directed at Americans, is using violence against Iraqi's to effectuate that goal. The idea that it's mostly aimed at us, in the literal sense, is sort of silly, as the relative death toll of American soldiers and Iraqi police forces and civilians readily attests.

I'm Joe Iraqi, and I'm standing ankle deep in blood, looking over my shoulder for insurgents and American soldiers, the former who are wont to kill me in service of their larger destabilization agenda, and the latter of whom don't know my language or my customs, don't guarantee my security, can't focus enough to restore infrastructure even to pre-invasion function, and are more likely to imprison me than they are to make my life quantifiably better.

Yeah, humility, perhaps. But a little American humility also is called for, and the patience to recognize that gratitude properly follows a job well done, and our job in Iraq -- assuming establishing a stable, secure, pluralistic democracy is our objective -- is ever so far from done.

I don't pay the plumber after he's ripped out my wall to expose the damaged pipe. That comes after he's replaced it and confirmed that it's in good working order.

OK, first off, having known Morris for 30+ years I find it absolutely, fuckin' roll on the floor hysterical that he's taking an active part in a thread dealing with are and are not good manners. I mean if there's anything he virtually defined his whole identity around finding useless and unworthy of respect ...

But hey - if he wants to play ...

Mikey can defend himself if he wants to. It struck me that what he wrote was absolutely on target and very well put - so of course my brother disagrees. ;)

But as to his criticisms of my comments: "You talk about "someone to curtail the violence" as though such a person was available, and Bush chose someone else." and "What would do more to curtail the violence than a nation's prime minister publicly thanking the nation whose soldiers were being attacked?"

1) You'd think Bush might have thought of that before deciding to invade the country. I mean leaving it in a state where you'll have what looks like civil war for years on end and result in the deaths of untold (literally) thousands of Iraqis ... Well, that would both seem something that's bad for our national interests and something that the Iraqis might be a tad reluctant to thank us for.

2) Are you stupid, or just acting that way? You think that a future leader of the country coming across as a lackey of the USA is likely to quell violence and instability in the region? Uh - have you ever read a book on Iraq's history or that of the region? Even one? Looking like you are a tool or toadie of the man - particularly the Western superpower version of the man - is about the surest way imagineable to stir up discontent in the country.